Conversation with Andrew Cunningham

What Follows is the Transcript of the Duke Conversations Society conversation with Andrew Cunninham after his trip to Africa in the summer of 2006.

[edit] Transcript

Andrew: …he was the devil’s advocate, after, uh, was it beatification… something, something like that…

Keith: …well we can actually talk about anything really

Andy: Ok

Keith: …but, uhm…

Alex: these are just what we wrote down, we were like, you let’s say that, you know, no one knows what to talk about.

Andy: Ok

Alex: Things we can start with, I don’t know…

<Solomon enters, everyone greets>

Alex: …we’re locked out of Trinity, um, but this is where we’re holding it.

Andrew: Usually things will be more spiffy…

Andy: This is pretty spiffy to me…

Alex: In about an hour, we’ll have random people walk in and give us food…

Keith: So it’s not too bad after all…

Andy: So can we just quickly introduce… I know, I know now all of you, now Solmon, you’re also a sophomore?

Solomon: Yes

Andy: Ok, so this is mainly a sophomore group…

Andrew: Yes, um actually, I mean, we’ve been trying to invite people, um with varying degrees

Alex: I think a lot of them just don’t like Andrew

Kim: So then you can stop … then they might come

Keith: So from now on, we’ll just have Alex invite everyone, but uh… it’s great

Andy: Well gee, I’d love to be in this group afterwards

Andrew: um, yea, you’re obviously invited

Andy: Awesome, because I was like reading, because I thought it was the Conversations Program and like…

Alex: A lot of people do

Keith: A lot of people do… that’s actually a big problem

Alex: …and in return every once in a while they say bad things about us and pay for our meals

Andrew: So in fact, DPU is no longer getting their events funded

Andy: So I guess, I mean, you invited me here today what would you like to know, I guess, these topics…

Andrew: I know Keith had a question that he had really been sitting on…

Keith: …well, I had been reading your blog and I was wondering, how good are you at chess?

Andy: At chess?

Keith: Yea

Andy: Pretty damn good…

Keith: Ok, ok… because we were reading and we came upon this interesting story about how you were buying a chess piece… or a chess set and then you actually played the guy… and he gave you a hundred dollar discount, and so how good was he?

Andy: He was pretty good

Keith: Really? Ok… how long have you been playing?

Andy: Alright, well my babysitter actually um tought me before kindergarden because my brother knew how to play …he was six years older than me and I was really pissed off… I didn’t know how to play…

Keith: Oh, ok

Andy: Um… and so… I’ve been playing sense before preschool… which is kind of insane. I’ve never been in a club or on a team or anything like that, um but, I’ve played my dad who is a psychologist who has played a ton of chess with his clients… so I play chess with him

Alex: So that’s what psychologists do?

Keith: …I didn’t know that

Andy: the main wind for that was um really just the pressure on the poor guy, because it was a slow day, it was in Agra, a tourist city, and you never buy a chess set in a hotel… you never buy things in a hotel period … because they’re marked up and everything… um and they weren’t doing any business so I said ‘well, let’s have some fun with this’ … and so that’s why I put him up to the bet and then everyone came around and watched us play …

Keith: Oh wow…

Andy: …so I didn’t have any pressure, because I’m like ‘you know what, if I loose, I can still say emm, I’m still really not interested’… but I know, I know, I would have totally paid him… uh… he had his pride on the line so I think he was just under a ton of pressure too…

Keith: Oh ok

Andy: … it’s a tough chess set too, because from the back you can’t determine what the chess pieces are, cause it’s not just like a bishop, a castle…they have, you know, their elephants, their horses, their camels, and you can only tell by the tail on the back … so you can tell what’s charging forward, but you can’t tell how you’re charging forward…. So it was fun

Keith:… so you had to keep memorizing basically where you moved your pieces…

Andy: Yea… pretty much… I mean you’re like ‘ok, that tail’s wagging so that’s pretty much the camel… and that’s the knight’ … so it’s… I don’t know,

Alex: …so the camel’s like the bishop?

Andy: Yup… the camels are the bishop, the elephants are the castles… and the horses are the horses…

Andrew: So what’s the logic behind camels always move at 45 degree angles…

Andy: I do not know… it looked really cool, so that’s why I wanted to buy it…

Keith: Do you still have it?

Andy: Oh yeah, it’s at home…

Alex: How big is it?

Andy: It’s huge…

Alex: So how’d you get it back?

Andy: … It’s literally the size of this whole square…

Andrew: …so wait, now where did you stow it? Did you ship it back?

Andy: I… no… I gave it to my friend Catlin McCain who was with me, and she left halfway through India… she wasn’t carrying anything… so I said ‘Hi… can you carry my chess set back?’ … so she had that as her carry on home going back..

Alex: what’s it made out of?

Andy: It’s made out of kind of ivory, but not really… I don’t know… stone-ish…

Andrew: …so is it made out of jade?

Andy: no… it’s the same … Agra is known for it’s stone… because of the Taj Mahal… so it’s known for its stone makers and it’s carvers… so it’s whatever kind of stone they’re using… and I couldn’t tell you that… I’m not a geologist at all… it looks cool… cool shapes… I love the board… and I was like ‘let’s have some fun’

Andrew: So … uh… Ben just came in… Ben Barocas he’s uh… kind of the last person expected to come here so…

Andy: Great… this is so much fun… alright… so you read the blog …

Keith: Most of it…

Andy: Like parts of it…

Keith: …yeah, yeah, like most of it…

Andrew: It is like a small novel…

Alex: … It’s kind of like having like a moderately sized novel…

Andy: … well it was mainly for … I mean, you saw my mom’s comments… on it …

Andrew: Your mom would…

Andy: She doesn’t … realize it’s like… an anonymous comment in which like everyone else would be able to read it…

Andrew: So those are like her letters to you?

Andy: No… there her letter’s to you…

Andrew: … ‘I’m so proud of you, I’m so glad you’re out there doing great things in the world’…

Andy: … You got it. So … I mean basically, it was also communication back home… and also to the scholarship program, being like ‘this is what I’m doing’ and then it was just … I don’t know… just good for me to be like ‘Ok, I’m doing something here…’

Alex: Plus you know in ten years when you look back you’re actually going to remember the things that happened…

Andy: …and the craziest thing though when I got back was if you saw on the right there was Lisa Croucher, Kevin O’Connor, and me as contributors… so Lisa Croucher is the scholarship director for summer programs so she was just there, and then Kevin O’Connor is actually a reporter for our state newspaper in Vermont… and I didn’t know who this Kevin O’Connor was for a while, and I knew he … I knew he came into my fifth grade classroom and I recognized his name, and I knew he was from the Rutland Herald, but I’m like… ‘I don’t really know if he’s still with the Rutland Herald’ … somehow he found the blog, and so when I got back there was actually a huge article already written basically condensed version of the blog, which was actually a helpful thing for me…

Alex: How did he condense it…

Andy: It was great… it was two pages… it was two whole pages… it was huge but I mean it was like…

Andrew: ‘He went to New York’ … that’s the only way you can summarize it…

Andy: No… he included New York, he included like the um… the incident with the uh the gentlemen who had the uh drug injection, and then also the masturbation as well… and then he included the surgery with like peeling of the maggots, and then he included teaching the street children… he kind of expounded upon those…

Keith: I had a question about that particular section in the maggots one … were they put there on purpose to clean the wound… or is it just from unsanitary conditions….

Andy: So The purpose of Mother Teresa’s organization in this capacity … because in Calcutta there’s five houses, there’s The House of the Dying, Shishubaba, which is the orphanage, there’s Premdom which is … you already know all this… which is the men’s and women’s shelter before they go to The House of the Dying… so that’s where I was placed… and their role is not to be a hospital… they say that up front they say ‘We are not a hospital.’ Because people will criticize them for trying to act like one… they don’t have the facilities for it… they’re not doctors, they’re not nurses, they are sisters married to charity, that is it. But what they do do is take in the homeless, and the people especially from the train stations where they get most of them, and they’ll have these gashes, huge wounds… because the public hospitals will not accept them unless their wounds are clean… so what the sisters do is just clean the wounds… so the whole purpose of that whole escapade with the maggots is this gentleman came in… and literally it’s the size of the whole shin … just opened up… and you can see the bone and the piece of glass running along side it and the bone is literally cut in half. We couldn’t really understand how that happened, how that glass got in there… I think he was telling the sisters in Bengali, but I didn’t understand… so I was just like ‘You know what, he’s in pain… I’m not going to be like… could you uh… please explain…’ um… and then basically the sister was basically saying ‘Ok, can you help us get the maggots out?’ And I said ‘Well I really have first aid, that’s about it, you know…’ … she’s like ‘Here’s some tweezers, here’s some alcohol, here’s some gloves and go for it…’ and so then it’s a three day process… so then holding his hand to the left and trying to tweeze out the maggots with the right…

Keith: … so he was conscious…

Andy: Oh completely… and there’s no… there’s no

Keith: Anesthesia or anything…

Andy: No… and so you basically realize the amount of pain he’s going through by the intensity of the squeeze, and you’re also just being like… I couldn’t look at his face… because that’s when I probably would have lost it emotionally… but like looking at a wound, it’s just a wound… and I know it’s hard to say that, but… it’s just flesh and bone and you’re just trying to get it out… but you don’t realize how horrible maggots are until you see them

Aleks: Were you like, terrified when they told you to clean out this wound thing?

Andy: um… I was most terrified when those worker boys who are employed by the sisters from the surrounding slum to help in the cleaning in the evening when the volunteers aren’t there to help sort of wash the dishes when the volunteers aren’t there… pretty much they’re the fillers when volunteers like us aren’t there. So they get really excited when there’s a really bad wound that comes in… I don’t know why… I think maybe they like seeing our expressions of like “holy shit,” you know? …but they came running up to me like “Come come come come come come…” so I was like “Oh God, something’s bad today,” so his whole leg was in a bucket of milky substance, and I was like “I don’t know what’s going to be in that bucket.” And pretty much I was the most scared before he lifted it. And then once he lifted it, it was like “That’s phenomenally horrible, but you know, we gotta just fix it.” So I don’t know, I think I was afraid that moment before he lifted it out of the bucket. You know?

Andrew: And this brings up a bigger question I’ve had about the whole blog and it’s that everywhere you went this summer, you were always out of balance. You were always being knocked out…off kilter, and was that something you wanted going in? Was that the idea to be always off kilter? “Would you like to run the shelter?”

Andy: Well first of all, I was told the whole way this whole started is sitting on an airplane going to Rome my freshman year on a winter trip with a couple friends… cause it cost $200 for a round trip ticket and we just said “Hell yea!” … sitting next to this gentleman who is in his priest outfit, you know, making conversation…so it’s like “Ah! I’m going to Rome, you know, do you have anything that you’d suggest?” And so we start talking and it turns out he was the first chaplain of Mother Teresa’s whole organization. So when Mother Teresa started, he was also the chaplain… because to have a nunnery, to have a convent, you have to have an accompanying priest. So he was that person. So I was like “Woah! That’s phenomenal!” And so I, you know, we start talking about my interest and what he needed and the sisters and he said “if there was any opportunity for you to go, please call me.” So of course, when I got home I said “Hi Father McGuire, I’d love to go!” And so then we started writing the exchange. And the New York kind of chapter of Mother Teresa’s is the main hub, that’s where all the communications start. So I wrote saying “I’m interested in children’s rights, I would like to work at an orphanage, and I would like to teach. That’s what I’ve done in the past. That’s what I’d really like to do now.” They’re like “Yes! Of course! Please come!” and I was like “Ok! Great! I’ll be working in an orphanage in the Bronx, in Calcutta, and Nairobi, awesome!” I go to the Bronx, “Well hello Andrew, we’ve been expecting you, please come, walk into the kitchen,” …ok I’m like “this is the kitchen for the school,” because there’s a school across the street… it’s not their school, I thought it was. And so I’m like “ok, whatever, maybe they’re older orphans, I don’t know.” And then, it’s a men’s shelter. And I’m like, “Ok, you know what… fine… it’s a men’s shelter, so I’m going to learn about the sisters here,” you know? Because most of them are from India and Kenya, because they never… have a formation which is sort of becoming a nun, they never do that in their home country. They’re sent to a foreign country to do it. And they’re in all the countries in the world except Iraq and China. So New York actually felt more like India and Kenya and Africa and South America, whereas Calcutta felt more like North America, Mexico, Canada. So it’s kind of like a juxtaposition, and this like multitude of weirdness.

Keith: Did they ever actually tell you why that was? Was there a reason? Why they do that? Why they switch?

Andy: Why they go? Because they’re out of their comfort zone.

Keith: Oh, ok, it was just on purpose.

Andy: uh huh, it’s because… I asked them the same question immediately, because well, “what’s the difference between here and there?” And they said “well, one, it’s fun for us, because we’ve never been here… I mean, sisters are people too, they’re not all like … they’re funny as hell, and they bicker about each other all the time, it’s just great. They also…being in a foreign place allows you to concentrate on yourself more. And if any of you’ve traveled, I think you’ve realized that. Have any of you traveled outside of the US? … I don’t know, you think about yourself, and compare yourself to other people more. So it’s also, I think, more introspective. And then you can return to your home country if you want after your formation. So, to the balance issue, Bronx, not what I expected, but I loved it. Calcutta, immediately begging to not expect it, but then oh, school for street children, beginning to, beginning to get there, and then Nairobi was actual orphanage, and then with Sherryl Borverman when we started creating the school. And that’s sort of like “ok,” now I’m prepared to work with kids, and it kind of showed me yes, I can work with the men and the adult population, but I don’t jump out of bed for it, where I jump out of bed for working with kids. So I think that it was important that the imbalance came, and I know I could have shut myself off being, “this is not what I wanted, this isn’t an orphanage, forget it… you know this is gonna suck.” But it’s… you don’t do that, you know? Especially when you’re doing a service organization or service placement because it’s imperialistic to be like “Well, that’s the service I want to do.” So I liked the imbalance…sometimes…

Alex: So how exactly did you know how to run a men’s shelter? Because they were just like “do you want to run it?” Because from your blog it seemed like it was like “and then I started to run it.” And I was like…

Andy: Yea, I’m there the first day, you know, and I cooked for the evening meal, and then I came back the next morning, and cooked for the breakfast. So I’m like “Ok, so I help with breakfast, dinner,” and then after breakfast a sister asked me, “well can you help me run the shelter,” so I’m like, “ok, breakfast, dinner, fine… I know they come in later you know, right before dinner, and they stay over,” and so I’m like, “staying over, that’s not going to be a big deal.” So really the main difference between what I’d already experienced is just staying over and then kind of supervising them throughout the evening, and then just getting up an hour earlier to make the meal, staying there an hour later to clean up after the meal, and then just being there two hours in the evening basically discussing their job opportunities. And they only have two weeks there, and then they’re sent out. So, they know they have to go.

Keith: So there’s constantly different people there, every day

Andy: Constantly… and their method of organization is so ancient. It’s the same method that they used when Mother Teresa came to start that shelter. It’s just this piece of literal cardboard, with Velcro pieces of cardboard and little pieces of paper with tape. And so you come in, I would take down your first name and your last name, and then the first night you would get one little square of Velcro. And so once you had fourteen, then that would be time up. And that’s the system. So like you saw people with thirteen, whereas just one, then if you leave, your name’s taken off. There’s no like paperwork, or like extreme… but talking to the men, there’s different levels of shelters that they enjoy… because many of the shelters in the Bronx they say are “just really rude to us, and are basically look down on us, whereas the sisters, they don’t.” All they want is a little respect from them for themselves, and then for prayer. Not necessarily Christianity, just prayer. Basically an innerness of some sort, of “I’m not the only person here, I’m part of a community, and that prayer involves others as well.” So more of a communal experience rather than an individual experience. I was also surprised about that, because I thought it was sort of a prostesization project, after reading all of that other work… never. The only thing I felt uncomfortable with was protestization was when I was with the sisters making, like food, or like doing the housework, because they just pray all the time, and they just do Hail Mary after Hail Mary, Our Father after Our Father…

Andrew: Now you said in one post it sounded like you were a little bit uncomfortable with it, but when you reflected back on it though you kind of came to be.

Andy: I came to be. That first week I hated it. I hate praying out loud, I hate saying “God” and “Jesus” out loud, I just hate, hate it. I just, I don’t know why. I like praying inside, I like hearing prayer, I like singing… saying it out loud just doesn’t go with me. So when they were like “Andrew, let’s pray the chaplet of mercy,” I was like, “sister I don’t know what that is.” She was like “Oh, brother.” … So that was uncomfortable to begin with, but then it gives you a rhythm, and I know why they do it because it also passes the time, cause when you’re cutting like a thousand grapes, you know, I don’t know, stories… you have your stories but then sometimes there’s just that awkward silence. It’s better to fill that awkward silence with something, like a prayer, so.

Keith: You did see… I noticed in your blog you saw, what you think are miracles, can you describe some of those? I don’t know if anyone else has heard of them…

Andy: So, two of the main ones I actually just heard, I didn’t witness… and that’s the one with the strand of hair… that’s the one you’re talking about in the Bronx… So there’s one of the women who helps in the daytime, so with the breakfast, there’s a few long term volunteers who come and help… obviously when I’m not there there’s someone else running the shelter…. So like it’s not just like “Oh no one… oh thank God you came for a week, Andy!” I was just giving a little relief to these people. So we’re having spaghetti and meatballs after the men and we were just talking, you know, so I ask, “Why are you here? Why are you volunteering? Who does Mother Teresa mean to you?” and she’s like, “you know what, I’m Jewish.” I’m like, “ok, great, I’m not.” Like, “Ok, what does that have to do with anything.” So she’s like, “well, I’m Christian now.” And I’m like “ok, still I don’t get what you’re talking about.” And then she said a month, or the day… wasn’t it the day? …I wrote it… It’s the day, because it’s Mother’s Day, it was right before Mother’s day, so that’s how I … pretty much her, was it niece or nephew… I forget all these things…

Luke: Nephew

Andy: Nephew, thank you… I love it… there’s like all these like fact checking, I’m like I know it’s her family, and I know … pretty much he got into a horrible accident, and went to the hospital, and the doctors basically said he’s not gonna make it… he was in an extreme coma and she was completely beside herself, so she drove up there, and she was starting to work with the sisters after 9-11, she kind of got “ want do some service,” and so a fireman basically said to her, because she’s a cop, “well you can go help here.” So she said “ok, that’s…” so that’s why she’s there. She goes up and sees her nephew, and just completely out of it, no hope. And so she calls the sisters, because she doesn’t know what else to do, and she says, “sisters can you just pray for him and the family.” You know, of course the sisters are like, “absolutely, absolutely.” They will pray for you so much. And it works, I’m telling you, it works. And, so then the sister called her back, and basically said, “can you come back down to the Bronx, we need to give you something.” And you know, Terri is her name, Terri’s like, “um, sister, I’m really sorry, but we’re kind of busy right now, and it’s really emotional and it’s really serious,” and the sister says, “well you know, we just really need you to just come down.” So Terri’s like, “fine, I’ll try to make it down.” So, she gets there, and she’s invited into the convent, and no one is allowed to go into the convent unless you’re a sister. So like to even be invited into the upstairs where the sisters are is just not regular. So, the sisters are “you don’t have any time Terri, you don’t have any time, come, come, come.” And they basically hand her a little card with a strand of Mother Teresa’s hair. And one of the sisters had received it from the superior, and because the superior’s there, and she said, “you know what, Terri, I was meant to give this to a member of my family when they’re most needed, well you’re in most need right now. So go and lay this on your nephew, and pray.” And then a couple of them said, “can we also come with you?” She’s Jewish at this point, so this is why they’re asking, you know? And she’s like “Yes, come, come, come.” So, they go to the hospital, and they basically put the card onto the nephew’s chest, and they’re praying, and according to Terri, obviously I didn’t… I didn’t see this, basically he on his side, basically he flipped over, he basically clenched the card with his hand and he just opened his eyes and said, “I’m hungry,” he said “Mom, I’m hungry.” And the doctor’s like “he is not supposed to wake up,” there was no way. And he had head injuries beyond belief, like leg injuries beyond belief, they thought he was going to be paralyzed… today he’s like perfect. Graduated with honors in high school, and he holds that piece of Mother Teresa’s hair, still today. So it’s just, I mean, that’s like my second day in the Bronx, and I’m like “Holy Shit!” you know? Like…so that’s, you know when people are, um, I don’t know, over emphasizing, or over imagining, or exaggerating is the word I wanted, you know, stories? It just wasn’t. Like she had that thick New York accent, and she just, she was real. And she was like, she cheered up herself, and there’s no reason for her to over exaggerate it cause she never told anyone in the papers or anything. Like she doesn’t want publicity. So it was just like such a good beginning to an introduction to who Mother Teresa was, you know what I mean? Um, because in the back of my mind are all those criticisms and academic debates about, you know, prostatizing, and getting the money and not spending in on the people instead of getting more rosaries or beads, you know, things like that. Instead of being like “this is why Mother Teresa is Mother Teresa.” And that’s why there are millions and millions and millions of pages in their archives in Calcutta that they’re still going through of people saying “I prayed to her, and this is what happens…”, for the becoming of a saint. There are so many documents. There’s like these poor three sisters working on that project, and there’s just like mounds of paper. But they can’t justify working on paperwork when there’s so many other people to serve. So that’s why they don’t have a team of, you know, fifty sisters working on it. Cause they’re like “you know what, it doesn’t really matter if she’s a saint now, or in a hundred years, like we’re still praying to her and it’s not recognized by the Catholic church, then that’s ok.” But, it’s a process. That’s a long winded answer to a short question. Sorry.

Keith: That’s alright, don’t worry about it.

Andrew: …I’ll get on board, I’ve got a question, um…no so like, um, Keith brought up an interesting point in that like, a lot of your journey this summer was marked by stories of significance where suddenly you had an insight that you didn’t have before. Something that, something changed, and for instance, the five people you meet in Perm Dan. And I wonder, when you’re going through this whole process, are you in search of these things… or, like how did you formulate that five stories, you know that five people idea, how did that all come together? I mean…

Andy: So Caitlin, my friend from home, my neighbor, she’d never been out of the country. So she had brought like all these books to read, cause she was like “I may have some down time.” And one of them was Mitch Albom’s The Five People you Meet in Heaven. And so I read that on… in the hotel, not the hotel, in The American Indian Institute of Study, which is like a hotel… uh and I just, it is a great book, fast read, have you ever read it? Isn’t it fast? And it’s really… and I remember the people, you know the blue man, and like the sergeant, and like you just remember the people. So I was like, you know what? I’m meeting awesome people as well, and that’s how I thought of, “you know, Ok, that would be a good reflection on the people that I’m meeting here, instead of saying, ‘all these people are inspirational, all these people are, you know, influential in my perspective on life,’ instead narrowing it down to five.” Because Mitch Albom could have done like fifteen, but it was five that made an impact on his readers. So that’s why I chose five. And then that made me think about, well those actually are the five that have influenced my life. So, the reason that I started reflecting was I think the result of Mitch Albom’s book. But the moment of like “woah, ok, that’s my lesson of today,” they come just sporadically. Um, like the maggots, I didn’t know when I was actually doing it that that was going to be one of my five. But then when I’m writing, you have a chance to kind of think back and say “oh, yeah, woah, that is a lesson right there.” But, in addition, it’s not just all in the writing. For example, when the gentleman who died, um basically, right next to me and then I was responsible for washing his body afterwards… during that whole process, cause you’re alone, you really can’t communicate with him because he’s dead, and you’re really just communicating with yourself, washing this man’s body, being and just realizing we’re all going to be in this state at one point, and where would this guy have been without someone washing his body, you know? It doesn’t make a difference if someone is washing his body. You know, what is the dignity of a body if it’s dead. So it’s just, so it’s like that kind of lesson was during the process, whereas like the maggots and my work with Aneish, the boy, and then the sister, um, in charge of Perm Dan, those are sort of more reflective in the writing and I guess that’s why I think writing was so helpful. Cause it was the first time I’d ever done a blog too, this is like I hated the idea of a blog, but the scholarship program was pretty much saying “you need to do some posting,” and I said, “ok I’ll do a blog then.” And you get addicted, because it’s, it’s literally, and I told you earlier it’s just therapy for me, and you know, I’m flabbergasted that you guys read it, so… or parts of it, so… I hope that answers somewhat of the question. Now I have a question for you. When you’re reading the blog… what kind of, I mean, do you picture yourself in the situation, do you say “oh, that’s what he did and that’s kind of an experience he did,” or is it something that you’re saying, “these are other questions that are related to part of my life.” Like, how are you reading it?

Andrew: I mean, the way I’m reading it is I wish I were there… I wish I could do things like this… you know, it’s extraordinary, um, to me

Andy: So you wanted to be in that position…

Andrew: The other thing it’s amazing how open you are to the world too… it just, it really gets to me how you can open yourself up to these people and feel with that intensity, kind of those things, cause I’m much more of a walled person I don’t really have many epiphanies…

Andy: I disagree, I mean you have the conversations program and just through your questions you have attempted awareness… lets pat each other on each other’s back for right now, right? Uh, but I think, cause that’s what Caitlin and I were saying throughout the whole trip are we the anomaly, are we…

Andrew/Keith: …our room’s just been opened

Andy: You want to switch?

Alex: I like this more

Keith: I do more

Andy: I like this

Andrew: Well, we can look inside, well one of us can…

Andy: Maybe when the meal comes?

Keith: Yea, after the meal, that will be a better place anyway

Andy: …Caitlin and I were saying, “and you know…

Kim: … don’t let him leave it locked….

Keith: I hope he didn’t unlock it… or lock it again

Andy: …A person who opened it

Keith: someone just randomly came and opened it

Alex: I don’t know why we should move…

Andrew: We might end up doing the other stuff in here…

Keith: yea

Andrew: They definitely misscheduled our event

Keith: That must have been it….

Andrew: We can stay another hour, whatever works

Andy: Yeah, no, it’s… this is really the first time that I’ve been able to talk about it and not feel awkward. So I really appreciate this…

Alex: It’s the suits

Andy: It is the suits

Andrew: I like it

Keith: Yea, I do too

Andy: Me too

Kim: Me I was more for like the jeans and t-shirt, but you know whatever

Andrew: Yea, I know what you mean…

Alex: … I’m just talking….

Andrew: Speaking of which, your conversation with Julian Robertson…

Andy: yea…

Andrew: … I mean, I want some more details…

Andy: yea ok

Andrew: that was an interestingly brief post… I was like there’s gotta be more to that

Keith: I actually…

Andy: Ok, so you just wanna know what we talked about, or…

Keith: well…

Andrew: I just what, cause you just said at the end of it that you had to take stuff off cause like, you felt like something was amiss or something wasn’t right, what…

Andy: Take stuff off…

Andrew: Like take of your tie, you didn’t want to be the same as everyone going into the building

Andy: Yeah, well first of all, I was kind of late… and….

Keith: he was waiting for you, ok

Andy: no, no he wasn’t, he wasn’t, I was late, like I wanted to be there fifteen minutes early and so… the stupid ham for the afternoon, cause you also have Wednesday where women and families come in to have the meal, but it’s not like regular daily, and I didn’t plan that, and so it was, um… the ham took a lot longer, and I couldn’t be like “ok, I have to go talk to Julian Robertson who’s a billionaire and leave you starving,” … well not starving, but hungry. So I finished it and I was like “shit,” you know, so I literally threw my, like I’m still in my shorts and like shirt and everything, so I through my suit in this bag, which is really conducive to like, wrinkles, and on the subway, literally like changing. I did my pants at the shelter. But like the rest, I’m like taking off my shirt putting it on, I mean subways in New York… if that’s the worst thing that you see… fine. Um, so also I didn’t know where 101 Park Avenue was… I mean it’s near the United Nations and stuff there but I don’t know exactly where… so I asked someone, I thought I got off at the right stop. I got up to the top and basically asked someone “you know, is 101 Park Avenue…” “no, that’s about 18 blocks that way.” I was like “shit” you know? So I’m just like sprinting in these clothes like down the, I looked like such a runner for like Goldman Sachs or like Lehman Brothers you know like “gotta get the deadline, gotta get the deadline.” So, this just feels so awkward cause I’m coming from literally, you know, ten subway stops away where no one has a suit, no one has the money to have a suit, and you’re here where if you don’t have a suit you don’t even fit in. And that’s when I started saying like I felt like Superman you know changing from Clark Kent to you know, the tights, you know the white tights, not being like I’m a superhero at all. I don’t have that much muscle, at all. But I just felt weird getting into… going into 101 Park Avenue and having to say “yeah, my name’s Andrew Cunningham.” And then going up to the top floor. And then coming to his office, you know, Tiger Management. He’s the man that’s funding my whole education, he’s the man funding a lot more other things in life. And he wanted to have a conversation with me. So I’m like, “ok, I look the part, I dressed the part, cool.” Of course you wait, you know, in the lobby and you have all these other people in suits and I’m like “hm, they’re looking a little nervous, I’m not really nervous.” Like, I’m not nervous at all, cause I have nothing to gain from this. And uh, I was just thanking him pretty much for everything. Whereas the other people on the other couch are basically saying, “are you here for, you here for an internship or the hedge fund for investments?” And I’m like, “no.” And they’re like “well, who are you meeting …Evan this that and that?” And I’m like “I’m meeting Julian.” And they’re like “oh, Julian is that a new marketing specialist?” And I’m like “oh, no Julian Robertson.” And they’re like “What?!” And they’re like “What?!” and so they looked at me in the sense of “Oh my got he’s a partner to the company, or something like that.” And that was just hilarious to me… because I was like, “you don’t even know where I was an hour ago, you know, and second why would you even care,” you know? So Julian takes me into his office, which is just gorgeous, you know? And he says, “where are you staying?” you know, he has a very thick southern accent. You know, I can’t do it, so I apologize. Um, and he’s like “where are you living?” and I’m like “oh in a hostel near the Jabatha Market, right on Central Park,” and he’s like “oh yes, it’s right over there.” Because he can see everything. And I’m like, “you know, you’re right Julian, it’s right over there,” I’m like, “oh my God, am I supposed to… I don’t know” you know? So he’s like “ah sit down, sit down.” I was like “thank you for having me,” and you know, “I’ve been working down in the Bronx,” “ah, working in the Bronx, what have you been doing down in the Bronx?” “Mother Teresa this, Mother Teresa that,” And he says, “oh, that’s just thrilling, that’s thrilling,” he always says “thrilling.” He means it, he means it, and then I talk to him about our New Orleans project, cause he did a matching program up to $50,000 of what we raised here for the families down in New Orleans. So I thanked him for that and updated him on the families and he’s like “oh that’s just thrilling I mean I just love it when students just go out and do things,” And I’m like “that’s prolific” you know? Um, but I’m like “thank you Mr. Robertson.” So then I said, “you know there’s a possibility that we’re going to be creating a school in Kenya and I know that you’re really interested in education and I know that your son is going to Ghana with his wife to look for development programs. Would you be interested in helping a Duke UNC collaborative project in Kenya?” “Well, absolutely you just need to let me know.” I’m like, “we’re thinking of a budget of around half a million to begin with.” And he says, “well that’s doable, that is totally doable.” And I was like… like literally this is what I mean by Superman, of being like, “why am I…” you know like, I don’t know, you just can’t be afraid asking these people with money, and if you have a plan and you’re, you have people…

Keith: then you’re gonna do it…

Andrew: This summer I went to Tulsa and there was like a auction and we went around and we were like trying to sell ten dollar raffle tickets and people were like, “ I don’t know…what is it for?” Like a $500 necklace, you know… and people were like, “give me 20… 30”

Andy: It’s a whole different world. But they do care about people, you know, and uh, especially when they get old, um like when they’re 78, such as Mr. Robertson, they’re realizing, “hmm, I want to leave something behind,” and so that’s why I think he’s being very generous with his money, and also building trust in the program cause he saw that it worked with 125 families in New Orleans so I think he listened to me a little bit more on Kenya. So anyways, so the conversation with him was really empowering, and then he says, “you know what, next time don’t… don’t, you don’t have to dress up,” cause I told him about the story of, you know, having to change and being like, “it’s all in my bag.” And he’s like “well, you don’t have to ever dress up again, just walk in here in your shorts.” And I was like, “ok, so it doesn’t mean you have to be in a suit to be in the top places to get help,” you know what I mean? Then he gave me a tour, which was phenomenal.

Alex: I would definitely want to know how the people in the lobby would have been.

Andy: Oh yeah, they’d be like, “Oh you’re the mail man,” you know, or something like that. I mean it’s also… I don’t know… I felt awkward walking through the Bronx with my Mountain Hardware like fleece on the first day. Like that was almost too uppity. You know, I felt like I had nice jeans on, I had sneakers that were pretty nice. I mean, they’re New Balance. And you’re just walking through and I mean it’s not anything prolific to say, but in our back yard we have horrible poverty and you see it in New Orleans, and you see it in the Bronx and you’re also just like “how do I have the luxury to choose where I want to serve in addition to go ahead and do it.” Whereas these people, that’s not even in their minds. I mean people talk about humanity and having respect of humanity and wanting to serve it, but when they’re pretty much trashed by humanity like you can’t ask them to help one another and that’s why you have crime, because they’re out for themselves, cause no one else is out there for them. So it’s just, I mean… being uncomfortable wasn’t in the corporate world, it was also back, back there as well. Taking off my suit, even though I left. So I put on my brown, I always wore a brown shirt, a brown shirt, and I still had on my slacks, I was going to change my shorts, or my pants in the subway, and I thought that was a little awkward, whatever. Even though I did that in Calcutta in the street which is pretty … But uh, I looked like I was a priest, coming back, cause I still kept my, this coat on, but I just had the brown. So I looked like I was in seminary or something. And so like walking through the streets, then people respected you in a suit, so if you didn’t have a tie on you looked like a priest. Because it was such a Hispanic community, and religion is huge, so one thing they go and have community with and they get stuff from it, you know what I mean? Um, so it’s kind of, what kind of suit are you going to wear? And should that even make a difference? Good old Julian.

Keith: yea

Andrew: Does he teach a course here?

Andy: Um, no. He came for a lecture.

Andrew: Ok

Andy: Yeah, he lectured to the Robertson colloquium course. He’s a great guy. There’s a um, you guys would be interested in this, have you heard about Fred Krupp coming? He’s the president of the Environmental Defense Fund

Keith: No

Andy: He’s Mr. Robertson’s buddy buddy, and so he’s coming to talk at UNC, um, I can email it to you. But it’s going to be phenomenal, and only by invitation and, ah I invite you all.

Alex: What is the Environmental Defense

Andrew: EDF? Never mind, he’ll tell you…

Andy: No, he will tell you, I won’t tell you. It’s… it’s, the big, I mean, they operate on 7 to 8 million dollar budget so, per year…

Alex: Ok

Andrew: Well, I don’t know if we should actually get into this kind of stuff, but Alex is the SO of C chair here…

Alex: What

Andrew: So he gets uh to do fun stuff. What? Tell us a story about stuff… ok, don’t.

Alex: The SO of C chair doesn’t have stories.

Andy: What?

Keith: Nothing, exactly

Andrew: He just does stuff with money

Alex: and it goes nowhere… it goes exactly where it’s supposed to go

Andy: So I mean the range of the summer was just. I mean, you saw it, from the absolute lows to the absolute highs. And I mean the absolute lows for me physically and emotionally. Cause I mean there’s the time in the hospital which, em, didn’t think I was gonna make it and that was pretty tough. Um, in addition to when the doctor comes over and says, “let me take your pulse Andrew,” and so, ok, great. You’re in the ICU so like, “beep beep, beep beep,” and then it just goes “beeeeeeeeeep” and I’m like, “oh my God, this is it.” Like, am I having an out of body experience? And so he just literally goes to the wall *beats on table* “beep beep.” So I mean, it’s hilarious, but I actually think that was the most appropriate ending to Calcutta. Because, not that “beep beep” and no beep, um, but it allowed me to also see where the men were that I was serving. Cause I was literally in their shoes. I had better service, but I still felt that extreme loneliness when, between 7 to 7, when there were no visiting hours. Like when a nurse came in with like a little piece of bread, literally that little of human interaction makes a world of difference. I don’t know if you’ve ever been alone in a hospital or alone somewhere. But, cause I struggled with that throughout the whole summer, how effective is my service, am I really making a difference, am I needed, and like the only way to know that is if you’re to slam into their shoes. And I’m like, ok, every time I spent an hour with this man doing physical therapy, or spent an hour shaving, God help me, these men, it made a difference. So I think that was a good finally.

Andrew: Yeah, that shaving story was extrodinary

Keith: yea

Andy: The one with the moving…

Keith: yea

Andy: it was terrifying

Alex: Is it actually good idea to shave a man who’s crippled, cause I was just like, he’s not gonna do it … no, no… and then you’re like, “and then he moved” and then like “ok, I didn’t get his neck,” and I’m like, ok that’s when you stop…. No

Andy: No, because the sisters… because he was also developing an infection on his lower lip, which I probably forgot to mention. And so you…

Alex: Oh

Andy: Yeah, I probably didn’t mention that…

Andrew: No

Keith: No, you didn’t

Andrew: I was like, this man’s beard…

Alex: I know… why does he need to be shaved?

Andy: Well, also so, if you have a lower lip infection, the hair’s also going to increase that infection.

Alex: Ok, it makes more sense now.

Andy: But still, still there are other people that, you know, are not with it really, and they needed to be shaved. Cause the sisters wanted them to be shaved, and also they themselves wanted to be shaved… it’s hot as hell. And if you… none of you have a beard, but if you do… I like just let it grow out for a little bit this summer, it is so hot and so scratchy and so itchy, it’s gross. And in degrees of like 120 degree weather, like you know no beard versus big beard makes a huge difference for comfortable if you’re just sitting in the heat all day. So it’s also different from “oh, I want to look good for the sisters,” you know? No, none of that.

Keith: So it was really 120 there?

Andy: Hot

Keith: Wow, that’s almost unimaginable

Andy: It is, it’s a furnace. It’s, that’s the only way to describe it. As a furnace.

Alex: So, I mean, I guess you knew that you wanted to do something service oriented

Andy: yea

Alex: and you chose to sort of do this, you know, nearly around the world, you know, basically service trip. So, in your eyes is there like a difference between like domestic service and international service?

Andy: Yea, I think there is. Uh, cause one, international service takes a lot of time just to make sure you’re ok. Like, you have to worry about yourself, a lot. About your own health, all the shots you have to get, all your own accommodations, all the places you have to go. You have to get your own food, and you just, you spend a lot of your time worrying about your health, cause you have to remain healthy in order to serve. Whereas domestically when I was in New Orleans, I didn’t have to worry about that as much. Yes, I had to have my own place, my own food, but it was all easy. So, the majority of my time was for the people here. For the Robertson program, we’re required to go international for the second summer. So that’s why I had to think of an international summer. You normally only have three options: Vietnam, Argentina, or South Africa. And I didn’t want to go to any of those places.

Keith: Oh, ok.

Andy: Um, and that conversation with the priest on the plane. I said, you know this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. So I chose the locations because one, one was directly in my backyard first, so the Bronx of New York. It was also the second one to ever be established after Calcutta. Ok, go to the one in my country, so let’s go to the one where it all started and spend the majority of my time there. Thus, Calcutta for seven and a half weeks. And then, Nairobi is actually the first one in Africa to be established. So those are the reasons why the locations. In addition, Sheryl is working in Kenya for the school, so that allowed me, yeah that’s why I wanted to go there. Um, and Nairobi’s, I know I didn’t talk about it as much cause I didn’t have any access… that place was the five star hotel. It was just phenomenal. It was easy to work at, it was clean, it smelled good. It was warm and fuzzy, you know, all these little kids had the best clothing on. Like, awesome shirts and sweaters and then you saw families come in, and you saw families come in in Calcutta, well Caitlin did, I didn’t work at the orphanage, but I saw them in Nairobi. And they’re mainly Italian, Swedens… yea, Italians and Swedens… I don’t know mostly…

Andrew: That are adopting out of the orphanage?

Andy: Yea, and it’s phenomenal. It’s the most phenomenal experience see someone take a kid, and that’s now their family. Like it just, it blows your mind. On you know, even talking about it, it’s like, “yeah, ok, orphanage, that makes sense.” To see parents say, “this is now my child,” and sort of have the child look into his parents or her parents eyes for the first time. So, but then it’s hard to see the toddlers, cause those are the harder ones to get adopted. You know, everyone wants the new infants. You know, the baby, they don’t want the toddler. So, it’s also really tough.

Keith: Now you did get to have some pretty nice… you did get to stay in the Taj Mahal area, right? Andrew: I wanna hear these, yea

Keith: I wanna hear this one actually…

Andrew: You stayed in some fantastic….

Keith: …some pretty good spots in India

Andy: Absolutly

Keith: I mean the most the time not, but…

Andy: So when Caitlin was there, mind you Caitlin’s never been out of the United States, so Caitlin’s having kind of a difficult time. And I was having a difficult time too. I’m not saying it was just her. Um, she was sick the majority of the time, the poor soul. Like we would go in and work, and she would basically sit in the afternoon, you know kind of rest and whatever. And so, she wanted to see the Taj Mahal before we left. So I was like, “ok, we’ll make it a weekend trip. We’ll do Taj Mahal and Darjeeling and that will be our little break and your finally to India. And it will be a good break for me in the middle of the trip. Right?” So, we go online, and we need a place to stay, so we’re like, “ah, it’s off season, it’s cool. Oh, this one only costs like 75 bucks for both of us. It’s like a HoJo. Ah, let’s do that. Ok, cool, the Taj View, ok great.” We’re like, it said, “and you have the view of the Taj Mahal.” And I’m like, “right Caitlin.” You know, like… that’s bullshit, you know? Maybe if you go out to the like, driveway and go up like three flights of stairs on another apartment’s roof then you would have, no. So we get to New Delhi and stay over in the American Indian Institute of Study there, there’s a lot of coordination. Get to the hotel, oh my God, it was just embarrassing, so embarrassing. It’s another like, Julian Robertson experience. Because, we get there, and literally you’re introduced to the manager of the hotel, you’re given leis…

Keith: oh

Andy: … Of like these Indian flowers that are like the same flowers they put on Mother Teresa’s tomb, which felt awkward. Like marble everywhere, like water fountains, you know like, “would you like some lime?” I’m like, “lime what?” They’re like, “cocktail?” “Well, yes, please.” So they come on a silver platter, Caitlin and I are like, “ok, you know, we’re going to live this up.” So we get to our room, and it is phenomenal, like, the bed is actually coushy instead of like a cement slab like where we’d been staying. I mean, God bless Indian households, but they like stiff backs.

Keith: wow

Andy: So, whatever. So we go up to our, the room, and we open up, and sure enough, the Taj. Right in front of our room.

Keith: wow

Andy: And I mean, it had a pool…

Keith: For 75 dollars, wow…

Andy: 75 dollars and it came with a free full body massage, um… it was, it was totally, we’re like, “you know, whatever, it was meant to be.” We didn’t expect this, and we’re being given to… whatever. We went to the Taj Mahal and it was phenomenal. You know? Of course, Caitlin became a rock star, because she’s white. And everyone came over to me and they’re like, “so what movie is she in, what movie is she in?” And I was like, “Oh, um, that movie.” And they’re like, “ah, yes, she’s from that movie, that movie. Let’s come, let’s come. Have a picture, have a picture.” And there’s like a line of like men, and it’s so funny, so funny. And she loved it, you know? She like, ate it up. So like we stayed there for like five hours just like her being a celebrity. You go to China, same thing will happen. Same thing will happen.

Keith: Wow

Andy: So its, so it was kind of like a nice retreat. And sisters take retreats too. They go up to Darjeeling as well. It’s up in the mountains and they just go up and breathe some fresh air. Really, like in Calcutta your snot is black. I mean, my voice was low. You know, cause, just that’s what happens. Um, and then Darjeeling was awesome. The Himalayas was phenomenal. You wake up to it and see it, wow.

Andrew: There’s a part that we had trouble with, at least I know I did, when you said that you were being introduced to the woman who was the mistress of the house…

Andy: The name…

Andrew: …and you said we just died. What it just like it’s her crazy name… it was just like…

Andy: We died. Yea… no, no, we’re is Mrs. Ding here, and she says “oh, no, just call me ‘Pussy, puss puss.’” … I’m really sorry, that is just… we couldn’t keep a straight face. And they’re all trying to be like proper British, you know they still think they’re in charge being the royal blood of like, cause the same, they’re part of the same family that built the Taj Mahal. So it’s called the Maharaj Palace, but this palace is like cold, you know, and like there’s furs everywhere and there’s the mini bar that has the little bottle that says poison on it. It’s like, over the top. And they have this party for like the Secretary of Transportation and they think it’s like a really big deal. It’s not, you know? So it’s just like, it’s like playing in the game of Clue, like real people…. So that’s why we literally, just like died. Cause I was like, “where’d you come from?” So…

Keith: wow

Andy: ..Miss, Miss Pussy, um, it’s awful, I’m sorry. But then she would yell for her servants like around the palace…

Andrew: Now you made a point of calling them staff, but did they call them the servants?

Andy: Yeah, I definitely called them the staff. Yeah, they were, of course, they were the servants. They were the worker boys and the worker girls. And Diya, who is my home stay mother in Calcutta, the staff, his name was Baboo, and poor Baboo. He just like, literally every ten minutes, or something like, “BABOO! BABOO!” And like literally it’s the distance between here and Chick-fil-a. Like, it’s not that far. Like, you can literally go and walk and get Baboo if you needed him. And then like if he didn’t come in five minutes, because Baboo was just like, “hell no, I’m gonna take my time, and you know what, you’re not moving, so.” She then would like start ringing the bell… so. Baboo and I had a lot of fun. Cause we always made fun of her. I’m awful, I’m sorry.

Keith: He did too?

Andy: Oh yea, of course then Diya’s like, “Baboo’s going to be sent away.” And I’m like, “What?” She’s like, “He just doesn’t do the work.” And I’m like, “no, he does great work! He’s phenomenal with me! He does all of my chores like amazingly well.” He doesn’t do my chores, you know? She’s like, “really? Maybe I’ll give him a few more months.” I’m like, “what about a year? I think that’s good.” Cause he was like getting paid really well…. It was hilarious. So like, tell me, uh, like your backgrounds. What are your interests? Cause I just feel like I’m talking, talking, talking. And I mean, that’s not a conversation, that’s a monologue. So I guess the question would be, if you were in Calcutta, what would have been most striking for you from like the little snippets that you’ve heard thus far, and why, considering your interests.

Alex: I guess I’m not so sure I ever would have been able to get myself in those situations.

Andy: And why is that?

Alex: I don’t really know. So you would just like, acted like the entire things that you did on the trip, like even if you were like think of something to do, international, foreign related, not foreign, service related, you know, none of those are things that would ever come to mind for me. So orphanages, I actually don’t really think about them domestically, it’s probably a fault of mine, but I’ve never had an experience with an orphanage.

Keith: I don’t know

Andy: So, like what type of service would you do? Or want to do. Like service, what does it ring a bell?

Andrew: Well, for me, I’m always an ends, means, products, numbers … that’s the way I approach it.

Andy: That’s huge, because the sisters don’t have an end. They don’t have a product, they don’t have a result, they don’t have a business plan.

Andrew: …I’m like, how am I supposed to invest?

Andy: Right, and I asked them about that, “you know, the way you wash your laundry is the most inefficient way I’ve ever seen in my life. You know, like can’t you just buy a washing machine, and buy 15 of them?” And she’s like, “ you know what, no, that’s not the way we work.” Um, and I was like, “you know, that’s completely right.” And I said, “you know you get criticized by a lot of organizations who have results, who have products, and people who invest in those organizations, for not being efficient.” She said, “You know what Andrew, …”

<Andy’s friend Jason enters they exchange a conversation, Andy explains what they’re doing>(~57:30)

Andy: …uh… so then I was like, “you know what those same organizations that have the ends and the products and the results, they walk through the streets and say ‘that’s impossible, that man’s impossible, I can’t… he’s too severely retarded, we can’t, we can’t do anything for him, you know, why would we invest money into him. Where I can invest money into a somewhat healthy gentleman who then can get back into the work foce and then contribute back to the economy.’” You know what I mean? And so basically their mission is “we’re picking up all the leftovers of the people who they say is just impossible.” And that’s why they’re not really efficient, because many of the people they work with, I mean, when they have a house called “The House of the Dying,” what’s the end result? Uh, and that’s kind of proved to me that my definition of service which was ends, results, and means, I don’t know if I really, I forgot the biggest part of service, and that’s just literally helping someone. And, like, the person who is mentally or physically retarded, they know the difference between a hand on the shoulder and a hand off the shoulder. They may not be able to read a book after three months as a result, you know, gaining literacy, but, um, hello they’re human, and they’re alive and they’re being mistreated right now. Um, and when you hear that from people who are married to charity, that’s the definition of service.

Andrew: That’s one of my biggest, well what makes you one of the most admirable people, but also is so difficult for me to wrap my mind around, that you go to these places and you don’t immediately like I would, begin to think of like the structural problems that caused this. Or... like no, I swear, it like to be in the situation and you’ll be, and your blog entries have all this hope in them and all this…

Andy: There’s criticism, I mean, there is criticism in there. Cause I mean Duke forces you to think structurally. And people who are even aware of the world think structurally. You know what I mean? It’s naive to go and say, “oh you know this is just awful, but you know what? He smiled today and that’s really good.” No, bullshit. You know what I mean? But you can’t also just succumb yourself or overwhelm yourself in the theoretical and saying “this person needs to do this, and this person needs to do this,” because when you’re saying that, there’s still people being mistreated in the world. And so, those two have to be simultaneous, and many times they’re not. So I think that’s the difference between this summer, working with the sisters, whereas the school in Kenya I entered that community with a structural, “why do girls suck at education here? What’s happening? How can we, you know, ameliorate the situation? And what is our school gonna provide that’s going to enhance the community.” So like I totally understand your different perspectives, and it’s healthy.

Andrew: Well, cause I would be in New York and I would see these people and immediately my mind would go to things like, you know, is this an indication of a way that healthcare is provided in this country and is this a problem of… you know I’d be looking for that fundamental problem

Andy: Yea

Andrew: I donno, it would probably just frustrate me to no end… I mean, where, where does the problem start? Where does this person, how does this person end up in a men’s shelter shooting up in the middle of the night? Was that what it was, was he just…

Andy: I have no idea what he was shooting up, cause I’m not familiar with drugs. I probably could have asked one of the residents… be like, “yeah, it was heroin.” I don’t even know. It was in liquefied form, I don’t know. Um, for me it’s the misallocation of resources, it’s the complete misallocation of resources. And you can say it’s the immigrant population, you know, in New York, but it’s also the lack of value on low skilled jobs that run our country. Um, and, that’s tough because I mean, why would you wanna pay someone who didn’t get an education and who didn’t pay for their education as much as us? You know, why should we give them the same benefits that we have after putting ourselves through this schooling. So then you ask, “um, what schooling did they get?” They didn’t go to school. They want to go to school, but they can’t. So, for me, it really roots into the education, and talk about “No Child Left Behind,” talk about teachers not being paid. Like, we just do not value education as much as we should. And you’re seeing it’s becoming worse, and worse, and worse. Because you ask these people who are in the men’s shelter. Half of them graduated high school. And people are like, “oh, well you know it’s… the reason because of, you know, this factory shut down, or he didn’t have enough skill…” and it boils down to like, “does he have a college degree, or not.” Which is horrible these days. You know what I mean? So for me, it’s education, but you ask the next person on the street, and they’ll say property, like the housing options, you know, just the location of the little ghettos of immigrants and being like you don’t have any opportunity to get to the other side of town. You know, those are walls of income disparity. They’re not literal walls, but, “you don’t have enough money to go to this restaurant over here, so you’re never gonna meet people that are going to give you opportunities.” You know? … sorry…that was….

Andrew: Well, so do you ever… because I don’t think those things when I look at Duke and I say, “are we here levering our opportunities basically against all those people?”

Andy: You shouldn’t, I mean I’m not… I mean, we shouldn’t.

Keith: People do though. I mean…

Andy: Absolutely. And that’s why there’re people in the world like that.

Keith: Right, exactly, lots of people do that. But… and Duke definitely struggles with that. Even in our relations with the work force here. We’ve recently had the living wage aspect of it. People want to give, people want, people who work in Chick-fil-a and Great Hall, wages you can actually live with. And that’s also to help ameliorate the, a lot of other problems with Durham too. That is a big issue. That’s an issue that we really need to discuss as Duke as a whole. And we should do it internationally and nationally.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I just read an article about how they, um, now of you’re a Duke employee, you know, if your kid gets into Duke, they can go here for free. But whose kids does that really help? The faculty. The adjunct directors. The person who runs Chick-fil-a, their kids, if they go to college, will probably go to UNC-Chapel Hill anyway. You know, because of the structural problems that are more pervasive and just…

Andy: That, and you also have to argue the other side of, there needs to be money in the world. I mean, without Julian Robertson, like a lot of the things that his foundation does would not be happening. But then, not everyone’s like what Julian Robertson, they don’t have a foundation. So I think it’s that, that fusion that’s missing between the corporate and the humanitarian world. Because the humanitarian world doesn’t have a business plan. They’re not effective. The Missionary of Charity has one sight, you know, example. But they’re just doing some of the most meaningful work I have ever seen in my life. Whereas the business, they are efficient, they make their money. Sometimes they don’t have the awareness that a humanitarian advocate would have. And you’re seeing that corporate responsibility, philanthropy, culture coming up. But, it needs to be electrified, I think, even more.

Alex: I’d like to interject

Andy: Interject.

Alex: I don’t know how they did it, I didn’t see them come by… there are large platters of food in that room… so if we want to take a break, grab some food…

<break for food>

Andy: So one of you were talking about, uh, you know, wishing you were… you were, right? In those situations, and in Calcutta especially the sisters know how to do volunteer tourism. They know the business. I mean, they may not be the most efficient at some of their work practices, but they know how to get volunteers and deal with them. Whether they’re there for one day or for a year, they’re like totally capable and open for people coming and seeing, which is such a strength of their organization because when they go back home, these volunteers, and say, “well this is what I did, just for a day,” and then more people come, because there’s never a closed door. And I think more organizations need to do that, to really make a wide impact like the sisters are, you know what I mean? Being willing and like, “ok, you may only be here for one day, and I may only give you crackers for being here for one day, but that’s pretty cool if we offer you the experience.” Um, at first I was taken off by it, being like, “emm, there’s so many volunteers coming in and out every day of Calcutta,” where like in the Bronx there’s none, Nairobi there’s none. So the fact that Mother Teresa’s buried there, everyone comes, you know what I mean? And they’re like, oh their like in 50 dollar head bandanas, and their like EMS shirts, and like, “you know, I’m ready to get dirty,” and I’m like, “oh, shut the hell up.” You know? But then, I was like, this is a strength of the program, and a strength of the sisters. But…um…

Kim: Do you have something against EMS?

Andy: No, I love EMS

Kim: Ok

Andy: But it’s just, it’s just ironic…

Andrew: I mean, I personally, I don’t think anyone should get any kind of emergency medical, anytime.

Luke: Wait, are you talking about EMS as in that, or are you talking about mountain wear?

Andy: I’m talking about mountain wear. Not emergency medical services… I was like, “I don’t know why she’s asking that question…” but…

Kim: oh, ok

Andrew: Now you know, a very popular service opportunity in Duke

Andy: There you go. Are you in EMS?

Kim: yes

Andy: That’s a lot of time and training.

Kim: yeah, but it’s …

Andy: That’s awesome

Kim: it’s fun.

Luke: Do you know Ben Applebome well? I’m good friends with him and Joe Meyerowitz.

Andy: Criticisms of Mother Teresa. We’ve been like fluffly duffy around here. Do we have any?

Andrew: I don’t want to say anything.

Andy: why?

Andrew: Personally… because I feel like Christopher Hitchens said it so much better… especially when she refused to build an elevator because she believed that the poor should suffer, like that was just a huge thing for me, um…

Andy: The elevator…

Andrew: She took the, she took the donation…

Andy: Is that a quote from her?

Andrew: Well, no, the idea is her philosophy I guess was that, um, suffering was a path to, you know, uh, cleansing, or some kind of spiritual experience, and so anyway… stuff like that

Andy: What do you think about all that?

Andrew: What? I don’t, I don’t pass judgment on Mother Teresa…um…that’s for the Vatican to do, um… I mean, plus, I mean, there is this whole thing where… I’m not Catholic, and it seems like Mother Teresa had a much bigger impact inside Catholicism than outside Catholicism. Cause she, she was, I mean, I think she was much more of an icon to people who were Catholic and who could look in and see this basically living saint, you know whereas on the outside, you know, for instance, like the perspective that Hitchens take is a totally sociopolitical, you know, very, you know, let’s just look at the documents, let’s just look at the evidence thing, and really that’s not how mother teresa was when she was alive, she was a symbol to people… that’s my personal opinion on that. For instance, like the declaration that she would be holding the baby in her arms the next time she visited. Like, I can imagine her saying that all the time, and maybe it wouldn’t always come to pass but if it did, that person got so much out of it. Like, Mother Teresa, you know helped them… that’s all, I don’t know…

Aleks: I think that there’s a lot, like too much focus on her, because she’s not the only individual in the Catholic community that actually goes out, or went out I should say… cause, well, that went out and did things to try to change the world, and I feel like they focus too much on one single person, that kind of… I guess that I kind of feel that, one of the main, a big Catholic sentiment is that we’re all trying to be saints and we’re all trying to be like the saints. And to focus, I feel, like so much on one person is, and trying to accelerate the canonization of her, and you know, and making her a saint thing, I just feel like that’s too much focus on one person. Not saying that what she did was not… important but, I don’t know… that’s just kind of my view…

Andy: Do you have something to say?

Luke: Not really, I don’t enough about Mother Teresa except that I really haven’t heard anything bad about her. No one’s like, “man, Mother Teresa, she was so mean…” like…

Andrew: Sorry man, sorry to burst your bubble… I’m kidding…

Luke: Well, um, I mean, if she builds a building for people and doesn’t put in an elevator, it’s inconvenient, but….

Alex: But she still built a building…

Luke: …I’m shocked, no, they have somewhere to go but it’s inconvenient.

Andy: Well, the Mother Superior, I had a long conversation with her about this, who’s now is, is the same position as Mother Teresa was, because that’s the organization like… And I said, “you know, are you a lot different than Mother Teresa? Do you feel a lot different?” And she says, “well absolutely, …I’m not as big of a politician as she is.” You know, and Mother Teresa was one of the world’s best politicians, like Gandhi, you know. We all know about Gandhi, even though we’re not Indian. You know, we’re not Hindu. But we know his philosophy, we respect what he did. And in India, Mother Teresa is a national icon beyond belief. Um, so I think within India, she influenced more non-Catholics or non-Christians in that particular setting. I do agree with you that inside the Catholic church is where she made the biggest influence in people’s motivation. Um, in every single one of those arguments that you brought up and that I also read earlier before going into it was just slammed down every single time by… it wouldn’t make a difference if there was an elevator, cause you know what, people are carried by the sisters up the stairs. They are not dragged up the stairs, or forced to go up the stairs by themselves. Like they are literally in the most gentle care, and I am saying that truthfully, not to be like, “Go Mother Teresa, Go!” You know, and to hear people criticize them, to say that the poor should stay poor, like, um, you know what, without a house for the poor, as you were saying, they would be poor in the street alone…. And it’s just unfounded, cause I’d like to ask him how long he spent, just like many of the reporters who come in and go out. Cause they’re on a deadline, which is respectable. But I mean….

<exchange with random family that entered>

Andy: But I think it’s healthy to criticize…

<more exchange with family>

Andy: …I think it’s just important to be able to constructively criticize the people you admire, as well.

Andrew: Now, I wonder, something I wondered personally is you did this, but you didn’t really do it for the immediate impact you would have, you did it to become someone else, a new you, a more realized you…. Is, is that, I mean… that’s kind of like why I would do it, I mean… did you actually feel that if you did it you would be doing something really significant in terms of your actual, immediate impact… I mean, what were you thinking? Were you thinking more about how it would affect you, change you, make you more, you know, “cool,” like…

Andy: I’m the most uncool person… I really can’t… um…

Andrew: Well, that’s… I’m quoting President Broadhead in his, uh, speech he… never mind…

Andy: That’s a cool person… are you a cool person? Did he call you a cool person?

Andrew: No, no he had a speech where he said you know, “this place will change you,” you know, “or has changed you…when you look back at your former self, you would see that that person was a lot like you, but somewhat less, ‘cool.’”

Keith: Oh, yea

Andy: I did it really because I wanted to learn what I meant by, “I’m interested in humanitarian service.” And I wanted to learn from one of the world’s largest NGO’s, and that was the Catholic Church. And within the Catholic Church, I identified Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity, because they have the most wide impact of the church. They are… just story, after story, after story, after story, after story, and I wanted to see if they were true. And I also wanted to give them a comparison between doing what they were doing in the Bronx, Nairobi, Calcutta, so they can also have an outside look on themselves. So one: it was just to learn myself about what I meant by humanitarian action; two: to provide them a service because I love writing, as you know, and an audio doc for them, so just interviewing sort of things; and then three: um, kind of growing in my faith… but I say that, and I did not think of that before, probably in the middle I thought of it, of the trip. This is, this is affecting my faith. Um, this is affecting why I am religious. Why I do believe. Um, but in the beginning it wasn’t like, “I need to go out on a missionary trip,” or something like that. Um, so really it’s just learning the field of humanitarian action.

Andrew: I mean, especially, you read this whole blog and you kind of go back and reflect on just the very first post, when you said, you know, that Mother Teresa’s whole policy was the “come, wait, and see,” or something like that…

Andy: “Come and see.”

Andrew: …or “come and see,” and that you described yourself as a “change agent” sort of like to go in …

Andy: Yea

Andrew: So I mean, was there something where you did change in, as a person, like are you now more willing to see an organization and see, “ok, yes it might be more efficient, but also who else is there who can do what they do,” type… or, you know

Andy: I think I was a lot more, mature, I think that’s what I’ve gotten out of it. I think I am more patient, and I think that’s… I think, cause before, you know, “ah, let’s do this and get it done in like a year,” you know? “Let’s fix it, let’s fix it, let’s fix it.” And… I’m, of all the service things that I have ever done, this is what I, this is what they mean by the word “service,” you know, this is a… it’s, it’s… seeing people … I already said this, but married to charity is so much different than hearing the president of UNICEF, or the president of SavetheChildren.org. I mean, you know, talk about why they serve. Two completely valid, like they have their motivations. But for me, it’s just such, such a more truthful motivation and you know, a refresher for me on what I meant by, “I am interested in children’s rights.” Not just for the sake of children’s rights, but because, you know what, I want to be married to that issue. Um, so for me, being a “change agent,” as they say, or as Tony Brown would say, or as a Duke student would say…. I love Tony Brown, he’s great… but I also think he’s privy to the culture of the campus, I mean, you have to be a founder, instead of you could be a very good follower as well. Cause there’s leaders that drag people from the front, but there’s also leaders that push from behind, I think. Um…

<exchange with caterer>

Andy: So I think when we were doing the school project, I was a lot more sensitive to the people’s opinions, and willing to take two and a half weeks and not say a word about what I thought some of their opinions were. Cause all their opinions were just so bogus, like why they think they need a school, or why they haven’t had a school before. So I just let them talk it out, and I think that’s just patients is the biggest change that I got from the Missionaries of Charity. Because I mean right now, there’s a whole new set of volunteers in Calcutta, there’s a whole new set of teachers, but those sisters are still there. And to think of that, to think of their commitment as something that I want to emulate in this new project in Kenya. So, I think I learned coming back sort of that change…

Kim: So what’s next with this project in Kenya? Where are you going, I mean just in general, where are you going from here in your, you know, humanitarian efforts?

Andy: So I realized I jumped out of bed for kids. That was a very good realization, cause I was like, “oh my God, maybe I should do premed, maybe I should do medicine.” Hell no. I do not jump out of bed, I jump back into bed, you know, at the end of the day. Um, so I know I want to work with kids, or for kids for the rest of my life, I love it. So this school, I’m a TA for Sherryl Broverman’s seminar for AIDS and Emerging Diseases, and she has a smaller seminar and helped her write the syllabus and basically the class is about reinventing the wheel with this school, finding out what already works, finding out the organizations for girls, the mentoring programs for girls, and then schools for girls in Africa that already work, and seeing how we can partner and be similar to them. And also, additionally get the funding from these various sources, including Julian Robertson and all those other people. Next summer… I know, right…. Next summer, um, I know I’m going back to Kenya for the full summer, back to this community. Because, construction begins in April. There’s also probably going to be a team of other Duke students that are going to get involved, which I do not know yet, cause we are getting our… business plan…

Andrew: …and you’re looking at me like I’m the evil business plan…

Andy: No, I’m just saying, you know…

Andrew: You must have a business plan…

Andy: Yeah, well you do when you go to these donors…

Andrew: You won’t be getting my $500,000…

Andy: exactly, right? Um, that’s being done by October 1st. And then we’re going on the road to the donors between October and November. And then by December we should have the donations starting to come in. January, we start recruiting the students from America, that’s including Washington University, here, um also at UNC, there’s many other students involved to go over and to help with the construction process. Then it’s the whole enrollment process of the people in Kenya, identifying them, and then enrollment of the actual students. And then this school’s supposed to start in January 2008, or March 2008, one of those terms. Envisioning my future… would love it, love it after graduation to be able to go there for a year and to just live at the school and to breathe the school, and the school’s supposed to be a replicable model, cause it’s not just a school where boys are absent, it’s a school for women’s education initiatives. It’s called WISER, Women’s Institute of Secondary Education Research. So, it’s also outreach programs. So, I see myself becoming married to this idea, similar to the way these sisters were married to their projects throughout the summer, so that’s my…

Andrew: Is there any room at all for… failure?

Andy: Absolutely.

Andrew: I mean, what do you do?

Andy: …Absolutely, there’s always room for failure.

Andrew: How do you accomplish….

Keith: …it seems that the people, the government over there don’t seem to be too happy about it, or certain officials weren’t exactly helpful, or….

Andy: Or competent, hello?

Keith: Or competent…

Andy: Really, he was standing broadside, and I couldn’t even see in front of his… He’s supposed to be in charge… no, absolutely

Keith: So that, so that seems like a big sticking issue for that

Andrew: It’s like, for me, failure is a huge issue because I couldn’t bare to do something and have it not produce, have it fail, I don’t know… and I mean, how do you, how do you, I mean, what happens if the school doesn’t get built this April or… I mean, what do you do? Do you, is it about this school, this place, or is, or I mean what exactly is the fundamental that you’re married to? Is it really this particular…

Andy: It’s getting the girls places into which they have opportunities… it’s not, I was going to say into college, but that’s not necessarily the case. But in the last 18 years, no girl has gone to college in this community. In the last 18 years, 47% of the girls have been infected with HIV from the fishermen in the community. So this school, really I’m married to the idea of giving the girls an education, and the girls I had the opportunity to meet was for a reason. I met them face to face. They met me, face to face. And if it means for me just coming back and going to these meetings in Nairobi and going back and forth, the school doesn’t happen, I’ll be there anyways. And so probably the team of us working for these girls. So I’m married to the idea of a commitment to girls’ education, because that’s what’s missing right now. And it’s also what has the most potential for change….

Andrew: And do you see that as being not just change in their lives, but to basically change Kenya as a whole?

Andy: Yea. Absolutely. You look at all the microfinance literature, the majority of it is for women’s initiatives. They prove again, over and over and over again that they can be trusted with money. And they’re going to do what needs to be done for their family, and their community, and so, just recently, the government, parliament, whatever of Kenya, just established the Ministry of Gender in Kenya, just last year. First step for them realizing, um… is this a picture photo op? I’m just kidding, I’m sorry… um, of valuing women’s education and the fact is women who reach up to the top, like reach to the architects, the engineers, the scientists, they are the ones that actually go back to the rural communities and invest. The whole reason why we’re in this community is because the only person in this whole rural community who has a PhD is a woman, who 35 years ago decided that she wanted to get an education and escaped from the community, ran away. Cause, she would have been forced into a marriage. Um, she came back, and that’s not an anomaly, women come back to communities, and also, I mean, to ignore half your population… that’s kind of why things suck.

Andrew: Well, that’s one thing, Kenya… Kenya is not a politically, very stable nation, in comparison to some other, even bordering it…

Andy: But it wants to be.

Andrew: right

Andy: And it’s gonna take, it’ll take time obviously, but not our generation, but like the next generation right above us, so like my brother’s age, like six years, once they get into power, I think it will be very good. But we have to wait for a little while, um just because that’s the way it’s always been. You know what I mean? And that’s their mentality And right now, that’s where grass roots is working. And that’s why my brother’s generation, they’ve seen the effects of grass roots, and that’s why I think that generation is going to be able to do it.

Keith: Now is there… is this community, is the AIDS epidemic particularly bad here, or is… because you said 47%... is there a reason for that, is there….

Andy: Absolutely, Lake Victoria, are you familiar with African geography? That’s ok if you’re not.

Andrew: …the big lake

Andy: THE big lake in Africa… so this is right on the coast of Lake Victoria and the reason why the infection rate is so high around the coast of this lake in Tanzania, Uganda, and also in Kenya is because the fishermen have all the money in these coastal regions. They are very poor, but they’re fisher regions. Fishermen have the main product. They have the main money. What are girls supposed to do? They’re supposed to fetch the water for the community. Where’s the water? Oh, the lake. Go down to the lake. Oh, who’s at the lake? The fishermen. Oh, the fishermen say, “you know what, I’ll give you, you know, 1000 schillings if you’ll come home with me tonight.” “Uh, sir, I really don’t want to.” You know, her family finds out about this offer, because that fishermen goes to the family and says, “I would like to have your daughter come to my house this evening, and I’ll give you 1000 schillings.” For a family that already has 8 kids, they have like almost no food, that father or that mother will say, “yes, thank you, go, take her.” So it’s this same group of fishermen having sex with most of the girls. A majority of these men, because they have casual sex with so many different people that at one point someone was infected with HIV in the community and that kept spreading, and now it’s just… that’s, that’s the epidemic. And it’s being continued by that same group of fishermen. Because that’s who has the money. Basically if I could give all the priests in that community, like a million shillings, they’d be like, “don’t go.” Or outreach to anyone in the community that could be somewhat trusted… that would be, that would be the answer. Cause that’s the reason why they’re going, that’s the reason why they’re forced to go into sex. They have this at the schools too. Cause for primary it’s all free. But for secondary, you have to pay fees. There’s one secondary school in the area. It’s a mixed school. And, only 50 girls attend out of the 250 students there.

Keith: Woah… is it… this kind of raises the question of, so would education… you’re saying that education may not really help that much in terms of containing this epidemic, you’re saying that it’s primarily economic…

Andy: Oh, no no no, so that’s why I’m getting to this….

Andrew: Well so I imagine they’ll turn around and they’ll be able to fix it because… maybe

Andy: Well, one, if the girls have income, um, their family is gonna rely on them instead of the fishermen. The only way to get income is to have skill. Cause, there’s, I mean, a ton of opportunities, it’s just they don’t know how to do it. You know what I mean? They don’t know how to work in the city. They don’t know how to work their own farmland. That’s why it’s not successful. But even in the school that exists, many of them are so poor that they can’t afford the school fees for secondary schools. So then the vice principal says, “oh, well, you can go, just if you have sex with me every other week. I’ll pay your fees.” And they’re trapped. Cause they need to go to school, and they need money to go to school. So that’s why also, we can’t really build on the existing school, because if we ever try to fire someone, the community would become outraged. Instead, providing a different space where teachers are sensitive and we have control over the teachers, then people are more accepting of the idea of, “well, let’s have a girls’ school.” Instead of changing what’s already been there for so long. So we pushed them with the fact that that old school is going to become an all boys’ school, and our school is gonna be the girls’ school of the community. So we’re still serving both genders, and we’re still keeping your school alive, so you’re still getting your salary now and everything. Cause it’s a public school. We don’t want to touch that, ours is a private school. So…

Aleks: Now, because the AIDS thing is so big in the community, is there anyplace or will there be with the school any way to treat these girls?

Andy: Yea, so there’s a mobile health clinic in the plan, and this is still a plan, so I say all this with, “oh yea,” you know, but the Duke Medical Center, um, Victor Chang, is on board…. So he’s very interested in bringing nurses from especially Duke’s nursing program, the newly established nursing program, whatever, enhanced, over to Kenya to serve two year terms… so fingers crossed…

Andrew: Now, secondary education, paying for that, that’s not just something in Africa actually, is it… something… I mean it’s uncommon not to have to pay for it, what is it, 10 plus 2 or something? I don’t know how the school works, but in India, in China, do you see these same sorts of things popping up in these supposedly more developed regions you know where there’re these crazy disparities… I mean, China is supposed to be booming right now, right? Everything’s changing, but they still have the same model of basic secondary education, you have to pay out of pocket for the medical care

Keith: Right, there’s no iron rice bowl or anything like that sense the ’70’s for them, which isn’t that they aren’t…

Andy: But you see, boys are succeeding… it’s not no one’s succeeding, it’s not no one’s going to secondary education, it’s girls aren’t. That’s what the problem is. Cause the whole population, China… they value boys.

Andrew: Is it a fundamental thing, is it about that people don’t see girls as commodities for their minds…that…

Andy: No. They think they’re going to take care of the kids and that’s it. That comes from tribal… I mean, they’re just, they’re wanting to get to the modern world, but hello that involves both genders. And when half your population is not working that’s why it doesn’t work. I mean, it’s just a fundamental, it’s the bottom line. So, it’s, that’s the reason China, it works… they have the same system, but they’re doing both genders. So it’s not that African people can’t afford secondary education, the boys are doing the thing. They’re just not doing both.

Andrew: I mean, that’s what’s so strange. I mean, when I… I have two conceptions, I mean, I obviously never having been there. On the one hand, I went through this long time thinking they had literally nothing, people were living in like, shacks. You know, that’s all you ever see is shanties. But then somebody said, “that’s not Africa. Africa has buildings, Africa is like a real place.” But, I mean, where… what is it like in this community. I mean, are we looking at the stuff where you see Prince William walking around Africa and everybody’s in shanties, or do you see, like, this is a community with modernish housing, maybe you know still…

Andy: Our community’s the shacks. That’s why we’re there…. Um, but you go to Nairobi, Nairobi’s like Shanghai, New York, Boston, it’s phenomenal. It’s so much better than India. I mean, Calcutta was just the shit hole of all shit holes. It was, I’m sorry to be that blunt. But it is, it is a horrible city.

Alex: Isn’t it the most polluted city in the world or something…

Andy: ..it… probably next to Mexico city, yea. No, it’s just horrible. So…

Keith: But it’s worse than India?

Andy: hmm?

Keith: …is it worse than India, or…

Andy: mhm…

Keith: By far, worse than…

Andy: I’m not going to say all Indian cities, but Calcutta was horrible. Um, but Africa is, it’s moving, it’s changing, and that what is happening especially in agriculture. I mean, the fertile land there is phenomenal…. I mean, it’s just they don’t have the skills or the technology to cultivate it. You see tons of agriculture business, like men on these planes going to Nairobi, because I had to go from Nairobi back to New York then from New York to Nairobi, for Goldman Sachs little thing, and so I like sat next to people and a lot of them were white, so I’d be like, “so what are you going over for?” “Well, I’m a farmer, you know, and this business and that business,” I mean not a farmer farmer…

Andrew: Like agrabuisness…

Keith: agrabuisness…

Andy: Yea, agrabuisness…

Andrew: So this is the Dell of uh…

Andy: Yea… so it’s… even in our projects we hired the governments to come… and search for a bore hole, you know, search for water on our property. And we had to do that because we couldn’t do a private contractor because that’s not in the bylaws of blah blah blah blah blah until we owned the land. Now we own the land, so that’s ok. But they had a 1981 machine… ’81, ’86, I don’t know…

Luke: ’87

Andy: ’87… see I don’t know how you remember… that’s why I write things down…

Andrew: Oh my God…

Andy: That’s phenomenal, did you read it today?

Luke: Yes

Andy: Ok, that makes sense…. I’m like this is a long time, like months. So it’s 1980’s, bottom line… how can you, I mean, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work, I mean like, you know it’s, uh, we got some here, maybe. They run like a wire out, and it’s like a team of 8 for like a machine of 1, and they pay them all…

Andrew: The teamsters…

Andy: You’re just like, “this is why no progress is being made.” There’s no actual technology, and the people aren’t… sorry, not answering your question. Two different sides of Africa, absolutely agree. Cities is where everyone wants to go, um, but there is that still rural part, same with China. Booming, booming, booming cities, go to the rural communities, it is poor as hell. Um, how do you fix that? I don’t know.

Alex: You look like you’re going to solve it in the next 10 minutes…

Andrew: No, I mean I’ve never had that international perspective, I look at Durham and I see, and I just can’t get over, you know, public housing here, let alone go somewhere else.

Andy: This luxury…. That is, that is the hardest thing to come back to. To see poverty here, and still recognize it as poverty. Because it is, it is poverty, poverty, poverty in this context. But man, they have luxury. People would die for that, you know, in Kenya. I mean, it’s context. And does that make a difference in your perceptions of poverty? Cause I think it’s unfair for me to say to a person who’s working, possibly at the Chick-fil-a, supporting three kids by herself in one of the public housing projects, even in that one on 15/501… you know? “Uh, what you have, you have a really nice place. Cause at least you have water, and electricity, and you have a carpet,” but I mean, is that fair?

Andrew: And so that’s, that’s, can’t where you focus? Is there, is there a certain level we should be trying to get the whole world up to before we start and try to equalize here? I mean…

Andy: I don’t think so, I think that’s why I said in context. Cause there is already disparity and that’s colonialism, I mean, that’s going way back. I mean, if we were like Christ and his disciples right now we could do a lot, probably. Not really, and damn, missed that one by a few thousand years. Um, but I think it’s working within your context, cause you really can’t change the disparities right now in the world, where they are right now. You couldn’t change from them getting worse, I mean with world trade, with trading options, um, but you have to work within your context. Cause even if we get these people running water, it will be amazing. You know, and then we get people in Durham, you know, jobs that actually pay minimum wage, a livable wage, that’s progress for them. You know, so that’s equalizing progress in both parts. So it’s in context, I think.

Aleks: Now, considering that context thing, do you think that we should, like, focus more on, you know, with the poverty say, here, over poverty like Kenya or something? Or, vice versa, like what’s your opinion on that, because like I know a lot of people have different views on that. Like we should be helping our own Americans, why should we bother with those people, and help people with the quality of life thing versus, you know, people actually living and not getting sick and dying at the age of 15.

Andy: You ever read Romeo Dallaire’s book Shaking Hands with the Devil?

Andrew: No but my…friend from high school works right next to Romeo Dallaire everyday and he does not like him…

Andy: Really?

Andrew: that’s hilarious….

Andy: He does what to him? Sorry…

Andrew: Well, he doesn’t like him and doesn’t he work up in D.C., and isn’t he the head of… what is he the head of?

Andy: I don’t know what he’s head of now. But he was the head of the UN mission to Rwanda in 1994.

Andrew: Yea, I know, ok, yea…

Andy: So he’s the one responsible for pulling out the troops… um, because too may people were dying. And he says on, towards the end of his book, that, um, “is it fair to say that we are more human than Rwandans?” You know, is an American more human than an African? And who is to judge one human life over another? So I think to, in response to the question, whether to serve here or abroad, is more saying, um, do you want your country to be better than another. And I, my perspective for myself only, not saying it should be this way, but boarders are meaningless, really meaningless in my eye of service. If you have time to give and you have resources to give they really should not matter if you’re an American, German, an Indian, or an African. Because the bottom line is allowing another human to enjoy his or her life. That’s my perspective, that’s why I bounce back and forth, cause I think it’s equal.

Andrew: And what about a place where people don’t want you to come in and impose a western ethic?

Andy: Then you don’t. You don’t go. You, I mean… no.

Andrew: Well, what about women’s rights in like Arabia or…

Andy: But they wanted it… there’s a reason why we went. There’s a problem, they identified it, they invited us to come. Now, obviously, “they” does not include everyone, or the problem would be solved, correct? But there’s a unit that wants change…

Andrew: What about, what about, um, Turkey… Turkey is a fledgling democracy…

Keith: That also wants to be European….

Andrew: …wants to be European…

Keith: Which is a big problem…

Andrew: But they certainly don’t believe some of the things that we think are fundamental, and they’ve got elected officials saying that…

Andy: What are our fundamentals?

Andrew: Well, I imagine women’s equality is at least one of them…

Andy: Now why would it be women equality in Turkey? … I mean, I know this answer, but, the devil’s advocate….

Andrew: What? I mean, don’t you think that it would be right to have women’s equality?

Andy: Absolutely.

Andrew: Ok, thank you, that’s my justification.

Alex:… so you’re right…

Andy: So I think your question was more… you know, you get this a ton, especially having… our second summer we’re supposed to go international, correct? And a lot of people struggle with that being, “hello, I can go down the street, and spend a summer here and make a huge difference as well. And save that 3,500 dollars for that and give it to someone else here.” And that’s a dilemma, and that’s what I… talking to you about the luxury of having the opportunity and being like confidence, but really just kind of being guilty in the same way for the amount of opportunities that you get. Um, I think that it boils down to, I think, where you’re most comfortable… uh, not comfortable, capable, of making the most change, because I do not know this community as much as I know, ironically, Muhuru Bay. Because I’ve taken a class on it I’ve worked with a professor that partnered with this professor for the past four years. And that’s when I spent time getting to know. So I think whatever you spend time getting to know, is where I think you’ll have the most fun and also the most success. But I just think, I think it’s stupid to say, “oh well it’s worth more to be here first and then we’ll go help them.” Cause then you will always be ignoring “them.” You know what I mean? Cause that’s why people get burnt out, cause it’s always uphill…. I feel like I’m in a Rhodes Scholar like interview, you know?

Andrew: …no…

Andy: So what do you think is the fundamental problem…. But, so are you thinking of going abroad or staying here, is that why you asked that?

Aleks: No, I was just wondering cause it’s something I noticed when I went to Jamaica, like before I went. I was like, “why am I spending my week in Jamaica when I could…” you know? Because that was when right after Katrina happened and I had friends that were going to New Orleans and stuff. And I’m like, “why Jamaica and why not there…”

Andy: Well, I struggled with the other way though, cause I went to Jamaica, I went to the same place she did the year before and I was like, “I’ll come back next spring semester and the next one.” But I was affected by the New Orleans hurricane cause I got close to those families. So, once you start to travel and start to form relationships even within your own family, you only see some of your own family a lot more than the other side of the family. And it’s not wrong, it’s just kind of the way life squeezes it and expands. That’s a horrible way of explaining it. Horrible.

Andrew: Speaking of which, if… I don’t know…what’s the time?

Andy: Oh, good call….

Kim: It’s a quarter of…

Andrew: Ok, I wanted to start getting into the sillier questions… So I just wanted to ask you, do you think that the world forgot about New Orleans too quickly after the hurricane?

Kim: yea, that’s a very silly question…

Andrew: … ok, maybe that wasn’t as silly as I thought in my head, but…

Andy: Wait, did the world forget too quickly?

Andrew: Or did America forget too quickly?

Andy: I think America forgot long before hurricane Katrina. I mean, bottom line. That’s why it was so bad. I mean, the public education system was horrendous. Like I actually, this is actually guilt that I am never gonna leave, but, when I heard the hurricane was going towards New Orleans… I sort of, not want it to hit, but at least get national attention so that maybe something would be exposed of, like the corrupt government, the corrupt system, both healthcare and education, and somehow get it to the national news and someone might pick it up and care about it. Well, it was worse than that. I mean, I was like, “shit.” …um, the world doesn’t care because New Orleans can’t explain what they need. The government officials, states and city, cannot lead. They’re incompetent of receiving money and distributing it. And that’s what frustrates America, and I think the general public. And that’s… it’s like you’re American psyche, “if I’m gonna give money, I want some results.” And they should have seen results, at least by today, one year and a little bit more after.

Andrew: Have your FEMA trailer at least, right?

Andy: Yea, from the amount of money that was pumped into that place, and the amount of money that’s still sitting in the state legislature, and national. But, I mean, I’m really blaming it on the state now, because it, it got through congress.

Andrew: Do you think it was the FEMA director, was it Brown…

Keith: Well he was incompetent…

Andrew: Well, he sad it was the state though….

Keith: The state’s also incompetent…

Andrew: The state officials don’t know what they’re doing… they don’t…

Alex: This is Louisaiana….

Keith: They’re what Chicago used to be…

Aleks: That’s kind of the view across the south though…

Andrew: But I mean, how… Chicago is still being lead by a Daily, what the hell is wrong with…

Keith: …well Chicago is still bad, but New Orleans is worse…

Andrew: What John Daily, Mayor Daily… in like the 18… I don’t know…

Andy: I think it’s the reason why they forgot, it’s not out of immorality, I think it’s out of irresponsibility of the government, which is unfortunate. Um, and people who got the most success out of the whole donations were the ones who went private, you know….

Andrew: So you think the charter school thing, you know like the experimental charter….

Andy: That’s great…

Andrew: That was a good idea?

Andy: I think it’s great…

Andrew: You and I are best friends, no… I’m a huge charter school fanatic.

Andy: No, I mean, what’s the alternative?

Andrew: Public schools…

Keith: Public schools which were incompetent anyway…

Andy: They need to start with a charter and be like, “oh, lets emulate what the charter schools are doing…” instead of restarting that up, that’s the bottom line. That’s a silly answer.

Alex: So, here’s my question. You have a piece of cloth from Mother Teresa, where do you…

Andy: It’s like this small…

Alex: Where do you put it, and do you do anything to care for it?

Andy: It’s in my room, I kept it in the pocket of my green bag the whole time, cause it’s laminated…

Alex/Keith: Oh…

Andy: yeah, it’s laminated. No, they’re not just like, “oh, pull this out of a drawer,” you know? Um, it’s just like, you know, that hair that was laminated on, you know, just a little card….

Alex: …I was worried they were loose…

Andy: No, so that’s I mean, I just keep it safe. And I mean, I gave it to, this is kind of intense. Um, away from this… sorry, but on Mother Teresa’s tomb, very simple tomb, it’s about the size of from the chairs to that chair. It’s a cement block and it’s literally as close to the window as this is close to this window and outside, it would be the highway. So you know, you’d just hear honking cars the whole time. And it’s just cement, no furniture, and that’s it. So very simple. So the only decoration is flowers. And the sisters only put them there. So, what I wrote in my blog one time is that I received prayers from home because, um, they have mass intentions at Mother Teresa’s tomb. So then my mom found out about that and then I just got like a flood of prayer intentions, which was probably the most meaningful part of the whole trip. Cause to hear someone else’s prayers is like, not being God, but being like, “oh my God, he’s got a lot to listen to,” you know what I mean? Cause this is only like, 30 or something like that, you know? So I put the intentions in, and all the ones that were related to my family I then got their addresses and I asked the sisters if I could take some of their, you know, flowers and have someone else do it, and send it home. Just some petals off of Mother Teresa’s tomb. More of an inspiration rather than anything else. Um, so I sent it to one, Frank, um who is my aunt’s father, who is basically dying of cancer. And, sent it, and basically didn’t know, didn’t get any response, so I was like, “well, maybe they got it, maybe they didn’t, maybe the roses like, wilted.” So I’m like, going through the mail… it’s probably going to look like, black, when it gets there, this probably wasn’t the best idea. Cause at the time I was like, “this is really cool,” you know? But then it was my brother’s wedding when we got back, and she was there, my aunt, and she just came up and she was like, tearing up, and she says, “Andy, those petals have not wilted at all, at all. And we put it next to his bed, and his cancer itself has stopped spreading.” And, uh, you just can’t explain that. You can’t explain that shit. I mean, you know? Um, so that was… and they have a picture of it too, I was like, “please take a picture because I don’t believe you. Like that’s a really nice thing to say.” And they’re still there. And they’re petals, and they’re not alive and they’re not in water. That was also just a, well, little experiment with nature, I guess. By someone who was… so that was a pretty cool kind of an ender… I feel like I just scattered everything. Has this been at all comprehensive? …beneficial at all?

Andrew: Well, one question that I have, not to dominate the conversation…

Alex: Is it a silly question?

Andrew: Sort of…

Keith: Like an actual silly question?

Andrew: All of use are obsessed with making the most of the opportunities that we have before we leave. And how do you know that you’re using your opportunities as well as you possibly can? Like do you feel that you are?

Andy: Yea. I feel more than blessed with the opportunities that are here at Duke. Um, and the way they can be used… I mean, we were talking about this? So, that confidence is more of a guilt of, “well, I’ve been given a lot of opportunities, let’s do a lot with them,” as you’re feeling. Like wanting to make the most out of everything. But I think it’s also the most important part is just looking forward and having a little vision for every little part of your life. And that vision will change, probably every month. Like my vision for this school will probably change for a little bit. My vision for freshman year was, “ok, I’m interested in children’s rights, so let’s do something down in Jamaica.” And I was like, “ok, I’m interested in AIDS, so let’s get more invested in AIDS.” It’s always like thinking how to connect, rather than… “so this experience, that’s over. Now it’s a new opportunity. That’s over. Now it’s a new opportunity.” The way that you get the most out of your opportunities is that you connect it all. You say, “what are some common themes?” Because that usually opens up to the next level of opportunity. I know that’s really vague. But for example, when you’re trying to get other scholarships or other internships or experiences of service, it’s got to start with a conversation with somebody. And they’re gonna ask you why you feel this way. Why do you want to do it. That priest on the plane was like, you know, “why are you interested in helping?” Before he gave me his information. And I start talking about all the things I’d done with children before. And then that led to the new opportunity. So it’s using what you’ve already done instead of always wanting to do something completely new, using that to allow you to do something new. So it’s that kind of reflection, with a little push of, “keep looking, there’s more, there’s more, there’s more.” You’re all sophomores, you going to apply to the Goldman Sachs? Goldman Sachs Global Leader’s program? Huh?

Keith: We have two people, I think.

Andy: Yeah, who? You and… you. Very good.

Andrew: But, I mean, you have to be such an amazing writer.

Andy: Um, no…

Andrew: you know someone in the Robertson program… Toni…. Don’t know her last name…

Andy: Helbling? She…

Andrew: I was, I was talking to her and she was like, she said that, I hate to do this, but she said that you were like the model Robertson. That everyone said they wished they could be like you…

Andy: Bullshit. That’s just Toni. Toni’s Catholic, and we like… you know… but I mean, like seriously, you are taking opportunities. Look at what you’re doing right now. This is so cool. I wish I did this when I was a sophomore cause I’m totally gonna join your group if you don’t mind… um, no, seriously. Um, and I don’t know, it’s asking people who you really admire what they’ve done in their lives. Cause I admire Carley Knight for what she did in Sudan. And I, just, well, “what are you doing next?” She says, “well actually I’m going to a conference next week,” and that’s how I found out about the Goldman Sachs. I never went to that info session. Don’t tell Norman about that.

Andrew: I don’t know Norman…

Andy: …Dr. Cool… this is getting to be a conversation about nothing…

Andrew: …well just does he have some strange mannerisms or something?

Andy: …so do you think you’re getting the opportunities? Yes? No?

Andrew: Well, that was just the thing actually we were just talking, and she said what she would love to do would be to go to a clinic in another country and have the opportunity to see medicine practiced in a place that wouldn’t normally see quality medicine practiced, and see what they’re doing on the ground… a lot like, you know, what Paul Farmer did when he was a student here… and she didn’t see the opportunities here that maybe other people see… with like, maybe going to the undergraduate research office and getting…

Luke: I feel like you can see things that, you know, I personally wouldn’t see. And you see them as opportunities, as feasible opportunities where I would see them, sort of as like, “This sounds cool, but I don’t think I could do it.”

Keith: Like building a school in Kenya

Luke: yea… I would never be like, “I can build s school in Kenya.” And like so…

Andy: And… I mean, you’re gonna fail many times. Now I’ve failed many times. And that’s fine. But you can’t, I don’t know, if everything’s safe, like why are you going to do it? You know what I mean? I think that one thing that a lot of people don’t realize is that the scholarship program, you know cause I said Robertson, so it’s like, “he’s a Robertson, so he got that opportunity,” those resources and just like, their connections, if you walk into that office, the OUSF office, um, Babs Wise, she’s in charge of all the undergraduate scholarship… she’ll talk to you about anything that you want. About, if you’re interested in, “hey, I want to go work at a clinic in a developing country that is practicing amazing medicine.” She’ll be like, “oh, a scholar did that this year,” and you’ll be like, “I don’t have the money how do I get it?” “Well, there’s actually, here, this person, alumni office,” cause that’s the whole reason I think why Duke has such a, culture, is because the emphasis on staffing these programs. The staff are so incredible. And they work, so make an appointment with Babs Wise, if that’s one thing you can maybe get out of this. So, just say like, Andy C. sent you.

Aleks: Can I make that face when I go to the…

Andy: Yea, I love her, she’s my advisor, she’s fun…

Andrew: Do you actually want to get into the really silly questions, cause like… we wanna, we wanna try and make regular questions that we ask everybody… just to see across many…

Alex: …I this is the one thing, I wanted everyone to say their favorite joke, but then I was like, well maybe on the spot, maybe you don’t remember your favorite joke…

Andrew: Do you have a favorite joke?

Andy: um…

Alex: Are you suggesting you don’t like jokes?

Andy: …no, I love jokes, but I don’t like jokes that are meant to be jokes. So I love funny instances, you know what I mean? Like, Pussy, for example… I mean, that probably wasn’t the funniest thing but…

Andrew: Well, if you had the opportunity to speak with anyone…

Andy: mm, who would it be?

Andrew: Who would it be?

Andy: mmm… k, that’s a good question….

Andrew: If you could bring him to the….

Andy: Does he have to be alive… bring him here?

Andrew: Bring him to the conversations society.

Alex: They would have to be conversations program access…

Andy: Everyone’s accessible; it’s just if they have time… I think I would love to hear, um, this is really specific, um, the editor of the Times Picayune of New Orleans, which is the main paper in New Orleans, and how he covered it. And why he chose to do, um, bold headlines of bodies instead of like, needs. You know, instead of, he has focused his abilities instead of, “water outage,” or like, “electricity outage,” “these amount of people homeless.” Instead of the body count. And he kept increasing the body count. I… cause I think media is the most influential power today. Governments are not more, in my opinion. They respond to the media. So, hearing him, would be phenomenal, especially considering the questions that were already asked about how the world forgot. But also just anyone who’s a face of media today. I would hear Katie Couric, but…

Keith: I don’t know about that… but, so uh, what’s your favorite color…

Andrew: Somebody had to ask it…

Keith: someone always has to ask it.

Andy: Oh, it’s Duke Blue.

Keith: Duke Blue?

Andrew: Which is Yale Blue, which is interesting

Keith: Is it really?

Andrew: Yea

Keith: I did not know that…

Andrew: It’s…

Luke: If you had to describe yourself as one of the characters from Lord o